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 Post subject: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:38 pm


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Hello together!

I know, that the most people from Handpan.org read also on this Hangforum. Because I am a undesirable person on handpan forum, I was censored and a short time ago I ask the admins there to remove my account. That is the reason, why I post here my thoughts about thinks going on, on the other forum.

Please have in mind, that englisch is not my native language. I use an online dictionary, but I am very limited in to use the entire spectrum of ways of expression.

Aaron Ximm is very skilful with language and psychology. So, it is easy for him to became a “leader” in a very “dirty game”.
At the moment a few people with economic interests try to manipulate people. The goal is to destroy Panarts reputation in the public. They use fear and prejudice.
By the way. We don’t speak about a big community. The most people don’t care about Hangforum or Handpan.org forum.
For example. There are round about 900 registered “users” on Handpan.org. 700 accounts have less than 30 postings. These are not active members. You can click on the profile of any member and you will find out, that a lot of don’t visit the forum since month or even years.
Don’t understand me wrong. It is the same on this forum. There are not so many people on the world interested in Handpans or Hang as it feel, if you are inside a “small” room, where ever the same people are crying loud.
Only a few people are realy active members. And this is worldwide. If you will meet all active members, you need no big room for this meeting. It is easy to manipulate a few people with fear.
There are thousands of Hanghang in circulation. Also a lot of Handpans. The most players don’t care about the internet community.

Hang is a registered trademark. Any company would be a fool, if they register a trademark and not defend their legal rights.
Tzevaot has made a posting on handpan.org , telling the community, that he got a letter from Panarts lawyer. Tzevaot has called their “coming soon” instrument “Hangpan”.
Elias Amkie from Tzevaot has declared in public on the forum, that he would destroy the trademark and patent from Panart. I think it is absolute serious that Panart send a letter via their US lawyer.
What do you think would Bellart do, or Pantheon Steel? They have also registered trademarks on their instruments. For what? For fun? Why they register a trademark?
Come on and find out, what the reaction would be, if you open a company and make an instrument called “HaloPan” or “Bellspan”.

Now a few people are telling, that Panart is starting a war against all “Handpan” makers.
Where is these information coming from? First hand information?
Aaron Ximm is an oficial spokesman from Pantheon Steel. The discussion about Tzevaot was another, since the moment Aaron joined this discussion. It is very clever to make people who are interested in Handpans fear, that Panart has the goal to “shut down” all handpans.
But this is not the truth!

Yes, soon would be coming a lawsuit hopefully to the end. I was in Bern in the workshop from Panart. There was a Bellart Bells lying on the floor. It was not possible for me to find a optical difference between this Bells and the Hang. I must read the “Bellart logo” first.
I don’t speak about the sound. Bellart has made a perfect copy from the Hang. I only speak about the shape and the optical aspects.
Panart ask Bellart some times not to copy the Hang in this way. Without lawyers! But what was the reaction from Bellart? Luis has followed any step and changing from Panart.
Panart has changed the colour and use a brassring – Bellart did the same. Why?
Panart has made the Hang dark, without brass- Luis did the same. Why?
Only because the Bells should be a exact copy of the Hang. This is confusing it is “unfair competition”.
There was a long time where Panart tried to speak with Luis without lawyers. But Bellart decide tho copy any version of the Hang. Also the Hangmakers have problems to see if the see a Bells or a Hang, if the have only a short look.
Panart is forced to use the legal way. If companys don’t find a agreement, they must clear it in a lawsuit.

There is no “war” against handpans. Yes, there are a few cases, where Panart ask people to make their own thing and not only a copy of the Hang shape to make quick money.
There is a history behind Panart. But this is a long story. If you want to understand better, you must read books about the Steelpan in Trinidad and Europe. There is a honorable way for the “man with the hammer”. And this is not to steal ideas and technology to make money or feed the ego.
Nobody has lost his “path” as Aaron Ximm and other people say now about the Hangmaker Felix Rohner.
By the way. Panart is not only Felix. Sabina Schärer is the first woman in the world who can make this work. In respect for Sabina a master tuner from Trinidad leave his hammer in Bern, in Sabina´s hands. Do you understand this “gesture”?
Again. The Hangmakers don’t loose a path. A lot of Handpanmakers never do only one step on this path. They don’t care about the history. They don’t care about the backgrounds. They copy the shape from the Hang, before they have ever hit metall sheet with a hammer.

A few people ask now, to boykott Panart and don’t ask for a Hang. A very good idea! People who will follow this “call” because they think realy they would support Panart on this non existing “war on handpans” don’t understand anything. They save Panart a lot of work to read their letters.
I think they don’t must be afraid. They need scales and more scales and more, more, more scales, because it is very boring to play an musical instrument with only eight notes.
And so, a lot of people will follow and make Handpans.
Quality will go down and down. The good think is, that the prices will go down also.
The time is over, where the audience spend applause, only because the instrument is exotic. People must do different thinks, to feed their ego.
I think it is not worth to make “war” about this.

I am absolute convinced, that the Panart will make powerfull Hanghang in the future. No mass production, because any instrument is made with devotion. 30 years ago the “spirit from Trinidad” swashed over the ocean to Switzerland.
I have the feeling, that the Hang is what it is, because there was all the time something from this “spirit” in the heart of the Hangmakers.

At the beginning of my time with the Hang I don’t understand Felix Rohner, as he told me it is not about scales. They are not so important. It is about dynamics.
Within the years I understand. So, no wonder, that we have now very dynamic times.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:31 am


Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 85
I don't get it either Frank. I think the trouble is chinese whispers and the knock on effect of touchesmysoul posting about her misfortunes... it's riled up the angry mob and they've come out with pitch forks and boiling tar ready to hunt down the Ogre.

It's a sad sign of the times when the internet becomes a catalyst for creating such negativity and hatred.


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 pm


Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:30 pm
Posts: 85
Frank,

i must agree with you on many points you have made here...

also, i can confirm that there are no legal issues so far between me(though i don`t make "handpans") and Panart - i dont know what are the reasons for that, but it is a fact!
the things i want to emphasis here is Bellart making new Bells looking exactly like 2nd generation Hang. even the size of the dimples, opening shape, color, the note boundaries, brass ring, ringe around the Ding. I wouldnt notice the difference from a meter unless i see the logo.

but Frank,

could you bring some light on the issue about Panart legaly threating(or maybe not) this guy making "Echopan".
i know he is not even selling them...
my best guess would be a central dome looking similar to Free Hang?


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:29 am

User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
Frank,

Since I carried your message to our small handpan.org forum (because you no longer have a voice there).

I feel it is only fair to respond with aaron's reply

You may read it here: http://www.handpan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5924

But for those who do not browse that small community I will post the text here:

Quote:
Aaron writes:

When "Hang" means fist

In response to Frank S's disinformation:


Given how much Frank and I have disagreed in the past,

and how much personal animosity he has accumulated from handpans lovers generally,

it is no surprise that he would, from the safety of his closed guarded forum,

attempt to derail a legitimate conversation here,

and confuse the growing deep concern about the consequences of PANArt's broad (and generally utterly illegitimate) assault on handpan makers of all kinds (professional and amateur alike).


Nor is it a surprise that his strategy would be to personal slander against me, as someone who long publicly opposed his repetitive, baseless, ad hominum attacks on Kyle, the Halo, and other makers;


And it is least surprising of all, that he would clumsily attempt to pin the coming destruction of PANArt's public image, on me.

Laughable.

Sad, also.

Repugnant, without a doubt.

But perhaps inevitable, as PANArt -- in this case through Frank as their proxy, instructed or not -- makes a belated and crude attempt at damage control, as their actions come to light.

In a small way, Frank's panicked assault actually gives me hope -- for it publicly demonstrates that PANArt's posture of being 'above it all,' which was already deeply undermined by public disclosure of the wholesale spying taking place here on their behalf, is in fact an illusion. (Remember: in bitter personal messages, Felix quotes forum members' postings here -- and he makes threats based on what he learns.)

Yes -- apparently PANArt apparently does care what we say here, and why.

And well they should.

Their reputation and memory is in our hands and hearts. And that gives us the only power we have to confront their mistakes and worse.

That they care suggests that if they will not back down from their assault on the flourishing handpan -- they at least they will hear us, when we collectively say:

enough is enough, and,
you are doing harm, and,
regardless of your 'rights,' what you are doing is wrong, and,
I cannot respect you or support you any longer.

Someday, I still hope, when enough voices are raised, they will have to truly listen -- and perhaps that will be enough to make them pause, and reconsider, and take a better path.


A word on why I care:

As has always been the case -- c.f. the well-archived public record -- Frank himself is apparently incapable of conceiving why someone would support handpans and their makers, or oppose PANArt's current behavior, except if motivated by personal gain.

He does not seem to have ever absorbed that I have a full time job and a family I support through it -- and that I assist Pantheon Steel in the margins of my life out of commitment to Kyle's groundbreaking vision.

Nor that the prime motivator for many of the makers currently under attack by PANArt is something beyond money: a genuine calling to develop and play instruments -- not to 'profiteer' off them.

That they must be sold, and the makers and their families live from their work, is a function of our civilization and its economics.

Frank is also apparently unable to distinguish between the infrequent posts I make here, in the service of publicizing information from Pantheon Steel, and supporting customers...

...from my first and primary purpose and voice here, as a player, and advocate for and supporter of handpans generally -- and, still, for now at least, of the Hang (of which I own two, and which I played before there was ever a handpan in the world...).


Let there be zero confusion.

I write here from personal conviction, with my own voice.

I fight on my own time for the survival of the handpan -- any and all handpans, the nascent or poorly made as well as the sublime.

And I do it out of love for the instrument.


As I have written in recent days, in private correspondence attempting to head off this conflict, I feel a personal responsibility and calling of my own: to do what is necessary to protect the growth of the ecosystem of handpans.

I love that ecosystem, in which there already has been, and should be much more, flowering of creativity and music -- and the satisfaction, when PANArt turned inward, of many of the things they themselves taught people to deeply desire, yet no longer have any interest in.

Someone after all must stand up. And so I do -- not for Pantheon Steel -- though I love the Halo and will fight for it also -- but for the garden, for the handpan ecosystem, as a whole.

If no one calls for its defense, if no one COMES to its defense, each person player and project under threat will suffer alone -- and, wearied, afraid, may perhaps bow to toothless threats.

And the world will lose another, different, voice.


Not one voice should be silenced!

All details aside, no matter what irritation or hurt PANArt feels that their much-perfected path was not exactly followed, there is not one hundredth the number of handpans or Hanghang in this world that are needed, even for the small number of people who know of them.

There are not one tenth the number of tuners and makers needed to care for and preserve what already exits -- including the Hanghang PANArt will no longer tune themselves.

Yet the attacks underway, should they go forward and succeed, will destroy much of the little we already have.


I believe that when players and makers stand together, and support one another, the garden must survive.


But something must be done.

The garden IS under broad attack.

Now.


Frank must either not have access to, or perhaps simply does not care for, the facts of what PANArt is currently doing, to whom -- and what the consequences already are, and will be.

There are not a "few" cases -- that I promise you. That is blatant disinformation.

Hopefully they will all come to light -- the sooner, the better.


Frank may well know, but do you know why the variety of threats are not public already? Have not over many months been made public as they arrive?

Because many makers need (and may not have) time and money to pay professionals to learn what rights they have -- including whether it is even prejudicial to their defense to let it be known publicly they are being attacked, however unjustly.

And because some no doubt hoped -- baselessly, it appears -- that some amicable solution could be had, without bowing to illegitimate demands -- AND without unnecessarily tainting the pubic image of PANArt.


The variety of threats being made is not yet known publicly. But some of them I have learned of privately. And there are too many first-hand examples to otherwise explain what is going on.

The inevitable conclusion is this:

PANArt is engaged in a strategy of intimidation and threat, resulting -- as we can only assume is intended -- in a growing climate of fear.


I have talked to makers at every stage of their development personally threatened by PANArt.


More troubling than those threats, perhaps, is that I have also recently spoken with those not yet threatened, who are now questioning their ability to EVER publicize what they are working on, because of the hanging fear of those threats.

What may have begun out of understandable irritation at perceived opportunistic copying, is now a broad assault -- one limited, apparently, only by pragmatics and (for now at least) personal relationships.

This assault accelerated LAST WEEK -- and that is why we are discussing this now.

And it continues now, while Frank sows doubt.


The climate of fear this assault is creating MUST be dispelled.

It can only be dispelled by public disclosure and awareness of what is going on.

And, then, finally, by the pressure public opinion will have -- both to sustain those under attack, and to subdue those attacking (hopefully to the point where they rethink this needless course).


For those unclear about the basic situation,

PANArt invented, but did NOT originally patent, the Hang. Instead, they described in detail the principal of its operation and how to make one.

Inevitably, people inspired by the Hang starting making them -- or rather, something not exactly the Hang. Handpans.

Such was predicted and arguably explicitly encouraged in PANArt's own publications.

Yet they now regret that they do not and cannot control the evolution of these not-Hanghang following the unpatented basic design they once freely gave the world.

They regret this for reasons they have never disclosed or explained. (I have theories... but it's immaterial, in the end, because they did not patent the basic design.)

And so, they have subsequently obtained (or are attempting to obtain) belated, secondary protections, like 'design' protections intended to prevent counterfeiting of luxury goods and the like -- which they are now bending into use as weapons against handpan makers.

Today, now, RIGHT NOW, they are now going after people making instruments that do not adhere to their ever-narrowing view of what a Hang should be, regardless of whether those weapons they hold are appropriate or applicable.

To put it starkly, unable to control the evolution of handpans directly -- they are resorting to threats, spying, and bullying.

History not to forget: not so very long ago, PANArt began denying tuning and repair of Hanghang owned by those whose only crime was to dare to own, play, even publicly comment approvingly, of any handpan.


Always I ask: why? What do they think they are protecting, even as they destroy everything that matters?

It is no matter of money, for sure; they could not satisfy us with ten times the number of Hanghang, and they can ask for it what they please... what, then?

Their greatest legacy is right before them and they do not see it. It is exactly what, like Saturn consuming his young, they seek to destroy: their own children.


And now, regrettably, we have the next step down into darkness -- Frank's attempts at disinformation and distraction.



In all seriousness I ask: is it really entirely coincidental that the instruments they now make have left behind harmony...!?



Things to consider, if you think despite the lack of patents, handpan makers should have 'known better':

PANArt did not and cannot patent the Hang. The basic handpan design is part of the public domain.

Yet, even when it became clear that an increasing number of people would try to make handpan outside of the Hang-model they approve of, they never spelled out the courtesies they would appreciate, and rights they feel entitled to, from makers.

Makers who absent their current threats would have had much reason to respect them -- including the fast-waning love they deserved.

Their proxies, including Frank, confused matters further, by relentlessly attacking both the Halo -- for being too different from the Hang -- and BEllArt's BEll -- for being too similar.

Though they would never say so explicitly, the implication as obvious: despite its lack of any legal restraint, no one should dare to make a handpan that was not, in fact, a Hang.

PANArt did not and does not now offer a mechanism to contact them, should someone even WANT to discern what they consider (regardless of their legal rights) appropriate or respectful.


Instead there is blankness and silence...

...out of which now comes their raised fist.


The meanness and grasping motivating that fist is of course a total contradiction to the generosity demonstrated originally by the decision NOT to patent the Hang.

And worst of all it is a sickening invalidation of the sacred relationship with it held by almost everyone touched by it.

I am sure that Frank, even in his protected forum, has heard from Hang players who now have misgivings, or worse, about their Hanghang as a result of the actions now being taken.

Every time I myself pick up my Hanghang I cannot help but think of what is going on, and I ask myself, every time, can I play this instrument? Can I manage to keep it above the darkness its makers are now spreading?


A destruction of PANArt's public reputation and goodwill will come, like this, from their current attitude and actions -- not through anyone's attempt, including mine, to shed light on it, but because that is what the fist will bring.

The pollution of the perceived 'energy' of every Hang will come from their current attitude and actions.

The inevitable ultimate failure of their intimidation tactics offers some consolation.

It will leave them as the prime victim in the end of this policy of aggression and fear.

But so much of great beauty will be needlessly destroyed, or curbed before it is born, before then.

So it MUST be opposed. NOW.



I have spent the last four days attempting, privately, to forestall the coming ugliness, through direct appeals to them via their agent Michael Ix.

But Frank, as ever acting the narrow-minded buffoon, and as ever a poorly-controlled proxy for PANArt, apparently has made the next move -- and seeks to force a confrontation and public quagmire.


If PANArt does not open the fist, a quagmire is surely what they will get...

...and a dissolution of much of the goodwill and love that they have justly won over the last decade.

But that destruction and ugliness will come from their fist -- not from my opposition, or anyone's opposition, to it.


Always have I said, let there be light.

Now more than ever, let there be light!

And to you PANArt I say, again: get out of the darkness, and open the fist, before it is too late, and the darkness consumes you and destroys your legacy.

Damage has already been done.

There is only way to prevent much, much more.

Let there be light.

Open the fist.

aaron

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:29 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Hello,

thank you Kelly for your response. I read also on handpan.org, that people have a little bit "cooler" head and try to see the right dimensions on this matter.

Victor. I could only speak for myself. I am not Panart. But I have enough informations to make my opinion. Do you see a difference in e-mails from the Hangmakers or letters from lawyers? I cant say something about your special "Echopan" question. But I know, that from time to time Panart send e-mails or letters to inform people about their legal rights. And they do that, before people must burn time and money. I think it is fair, that Panart do it in such way. In germany normally a company dont write letters or mails in private.
If they find out, that someone violates copyright and other intellectual property rights they send direct a letter per lawyers and the receiver has to pay the bill.

Yes, there are a few (most commercial) Handpanmakers, who received a letter from Panarts lawyers. But before, Panart tried to sort out the questions in private. But if there is no agreement between two company or people, they must go the legal way. If they do nothing, they loose their legal rights.

It is likely, that Panart wrote from time to time mails, if they see that people want to make something similar to the Hang. I remember, that a short time ago someone post pictures from his first rawform. The center looks realy like the Ding from Panarts Free Hang. This person has absolute NO experience in tuning. He never tuned only one tonefield or note. But he made such a complex copy, without any understanding of the function.
Panart needs years to understand the physics behind those details. And I understand, if they write mails with suggestions not to copy the Hang shape, in this way. This is not a good startpoint. Except, you will make poor copys, because your creation must look excact like a Hang. (For what reasons, ever)

This is no war and the goal from Panart is not to "shut down" those people.

I hope I could bring a little bit "light" on this topic.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:38 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Hello Greenoak,

I have seen, that you made a copy of my complete text and post it on handpan.org. First, I was a little bit surprised. Do you know something about "copyright"?
You do nothing against my status as a censored person on handpan.org as an Admin, but now you copy my postings. This is a little bit weird.

But hey. It is ok. ;) It would be better if you ask me before. But, I wrote my posting, because so much people as possible can read, what I have to say.
Now you post an posting from Aaron on this place. I hope, that Aaron agree with your copy and paste. If not, I must delete his posting, because as the owner on this Forum, I am responsible not to break rules.

It would be only fair for all people, who will read my reaction on Aarons posting, if you make a Link on handpan.org to my answer.
I will write something soon. This needs a little bit more time.
First I will have a coffee.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:34 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Dear Aaron,

first I will say it again. I am not Panart´s "proxy", as you wrote in your very long statement.

I only can speak for myself.

Yes, I have a friendly and good relationship with Panart and I am in regular contact. So, I know enough, to make my own opinion. Much more, I am an Hangplayer since years.

I understand also, why you are making after any "phrase" on your "inflammatory speech" a blank line. That is, why I wrote, you are skilled in psychology. A lot of words, with little content.

I dont seek any confrontation in public, as you wrote. It was you, who joined the discussion with your try to manipulate. I understand absolute why.

No, I am not in panic, as your wrote. I think it is you, who lost a little bit the balance. Why you are beating around the bush? I see, that you want to manipulate people, because in the very near future a court will speak.

What have you personally done, to help on a peaceful solution? There was enough time, to speak with Luis and help him to change his mind. But you wrote an "expertise" for him and so, you gave him the feeling he is right and that it is good to copy any optical aspect of the Hang.

And now? Now you try to manipulate Panart and other people. I think this is not clever, as an "neutral expert".

If a company dont fight their legal rights they loose this rights! Panart must be a fool, nothing to do. And yes, they have tryed to go a way without lawyers.

Please answer me this question as an oficial "proxy" of Pantheon Steel.
What would Pantheon do, if a company open the door and call their creation "Hailo" or "Halopan" or something like that?
Why they register this trademark and pay money for this registration?
Is it ok for Pantheon, if people use this names, without any permission?

Why Pantheon are filed an Patent and spend a lot of money for that?
Only for fun? It is a problem, if people use excact those technic for commercial "Halo copys", without permission?

http://www.google.com/patents/US2011006 ... &q&f=false

If people try to do that, they will find out the answer. And if Pantheon do not fight for their Trademark and other legal rights, they will loose this rights.
This is business as usual.

Aaron. There is a lot of "light" in Bern. I dont think, that your campain will have success. It is not Panart, who make people fear to take the hammer, it is You and other people who make people fear.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:48 am

User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
Quote:
I have seen, that you made a copy of my complete text and post it on handpan.org. First, I was a little bit surprised. Do you know something about "copyright"?
You do nothing against my status as a censored person on handpan.org as an Admin, but now you copy my postings. This is a little bit weird.


Frank, you already said you have no voice on our community. How do you expect your message to be conveyed (or read at all). I am merely being a Herald or ambassador between disparate but oh-so-common groups. Forgive me if I have over stepped my bounds.

Michael Paschko admonished me recently about posting public information. He said (paraphrasing...) , "It is public. This is the internet. You do not need my permission."

I did not publish secret information. I did not have to be a member of this forum to copy your post. It is available publicly. I gave references. AND I might add... I added your voice to a "small" but passonate community. AND I might add you received a well reasoned response.

Aaron does not have a voice here so I posted his reply. It is only fair.

You have admonished me more than once that this forum is OPEN. I take you at your word. I did not give it a second thought.

In Service to a Dream,

Greenoak :|

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:04 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Hello Greenoak,

yes, it is open and no secret. I have said it on my posting. It is ok for me, at the moment.
I know, that the most people read here. I know also the statistics from this Forum. Welcome readers. ;)

But before you got problems in the future from other people, I will explain the copyright.
You can use a short "quote" on any text on the internet and than you have to make a link to the original source. There are realy a lot of lawyers after that, here in germany. I think a lot of lawyers do nothing else, as this job. And this could be expensive.
Dont get me wrong. I only explain the "legal rules" for you. You have nothing to fear from me.
It would be only better, if you ask me before.

And yes, Aaron can post easy on this place if he want. No problem!

And this is the difference @Lino. I was censored, not because people change my postings. If I want to post something on handpan.org an admin read my posting before it was public to read for all. They want decide, if my opinions and thoughts are desired. This is censorship! What else?
But this is not the topic, at the moment.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:10 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Greenoak,

please fix the Link to the Pantheon Patent on your copy and paste of my posting on Handpan.org.
If you click the link the wrong site is displayed. I think this is only a mistake, but it looks, like I am a little bit confuse.

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:17 am

User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
fixed...

(and for the recored aaron gave me his OK...)

and (for the record) I fail to see the difference between a full reposting vs. a link to said posting...

very late (1:45 AM)... must sleep...

-greenoak (Ray Ford)

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:09 am

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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:30 am
Posts: 105
Location: uk
Frank Sturm wrote:
And this is the difference @Lino. I was censored, not because people change my postings. If I want to post something on handpan.org an admin read my posting before it was public to read for all. They want decide, if my opinions and thoughts are desired. This is censorship! What else?
But this is not the topic, at the moment.

Frank

Frank you are telling lies and giving misinformation -

1) nothing you ever wrote at handpan.org was sensored - everything you wrote made it directly to the forum - ONCE I added bold text to a phrase you wrote - that is not censorship

2) at handpan.org we sometimes use "moderated status" for certain members who's posts are often flammatory - you were one of those users - the good thing with moderated status is to enable a moderator/admin to be online at the moment the post "goes live" this helps to catch and address the consequences of the post by other members - this is a sensible precaution - not anything else.

3) since you were placed on moderated status you made 0 posts - none - nothing .... So NOTHING was censored.

4) you recently (repeatedly) asked to be deleted (posts and all) from handpan.org - I begged you to stay and keep posting - but you wouldn't ..... Don't cry about censorship please as I feel that you censored yourself.

For what it's worth -
I think you are getting into this panart legal discussion way over your head.... Have you ever seen the legal documents that certain pan/handpan/tongue drum makers have received? Are you aware of the individual issues each maker (potential maker) faces? Do realize that you are fueling the fire? I also think that you are not helping Panart with your misguided posts either.


I have much more to say on the matter but for now I wanted to clear up these small points.


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:22 pm


Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 22
Only thing needed to avoid the confusion and rumors (including disadvantageous metaphors like the "war on handpans") would be some kind of clear information or statement on PanArts position regarding other instrument makers. Under which circumstances they are tolerated, and under which circumstances they are sued.


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 Post subject: How "Hang" could mean "open hand"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:39 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
Greetings,

In my self-proclaimed (for the moment) role of Herald (go between) between Hangforum and Handpan.org, I am posting a another response from aaron.

Here is the link to the original - http://www.handpan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5932

I did get aaron's permission to repost in its entirety.

-greenoak :|

Quote:
aaron writes:

Last week, I learned many troubling things about PANArt's current path of intimidation against handpan makers at all levels of development.

It was a shock to me that things were getting so bad -- and about to get very much worse:

As I understand it, this week PANArt goes into court against BEllArt, attempting I presume to shut down Luis entirely. As I understand it, Michael Ix will testify against him.

(And as Lino mentioned elsewhere, Pantheon Steel also has been the recipient of ongoing demands from PANArt's legal firms...)

Pause for a moment and imagine a handpan world in which PANArt prevails, and both BEllArt and Pantheon Steel are eliminated.


And as mentioned in my other posting, there is more -- which it is not my place to disclose who else has received intimidation.

The potential demise of BEllArt, paired with the other information I learned, pushed me from complacency into action.

And so,

I wrote Michael Ix numerous times, knowing that he is an agent (employee, or confidant and volunteer, I have no idea) of PANArt, and I begged him to press the 'pause' button -- and to consider a better path, and, Allah willing, advocate for it.

My intention in writing him was to try until fully exhausted the path of persuasion, privately -- I imagined even perhaps going so far as to the first time to dare to write Felix directly, in hopes that the tenor of conversation -- or the 'paradigm' -- of relations between PANArt and handpans makers could be changed.

Unfortunately, Frank S went on the offensive and personally attacked me, and offered disinformation publicly, before I came to the end of those efforts.

Whether he was goaded, or inspired, by my words to Michael and to others on that 'side' I do not know. Perhaps it was merely very poor timing on his part.

Comments posted on the Hangforum I would not have known about, nor really cared about -- but once they were posted here, I felt I had no choice but to rebut them. Too many people were giving him too much undeserved credence.

And so, private attempts at advocating for a 'diplomatic' solution were replaced by public conflict.

I regret this, because it forced me to come forward with the severity of the current situation in a a confrontational, negative manner.

That would not have been my first choice -- nor is it still.

Rather, as GotHang wrote recently, energy should be spent on finding a positive solution -- whatever that is.

Personally I believe that the most important thing is for people to be aware of what is going on -- the real risk the 'handpan' world faces right now -- and, hopefully, to be motivated to take, and ideally make, constructive action.

Just what that action is -- how constructive pressure can be applied -- I do not know. Ideas welcome!

But what those actions might be in service of, I do have my own ideas.

I want to share part of what I wrote Michael, verbatim, as an example of what a constructive and positive change would mean.

As described below, it is only a vision. A fantasy. One that is far removed from the present situation.

But call me a dreamer, even now, it does not seem entirely implausible, nor impossible!

I do not dare to hope that, in the current contentious climate, PANArt will move this way...

...but it is worth sharing the vision, because the more who can imagine it, who share it, the more chance -- however small -- it might have of, at least in part, coming to be.

Obviously, it is not for me to tell what PANArt should do.

But I can tell them what I, for one, as someone who loves both the Hang AND the flowering of handpans, would fall to my knees in gratitude for -- should they chose to do it.

It is not humble to dream this large.

But PANArt has never shied from grand visions!

I hope now only that this is one that they will entertain, even if to consider -- as I wrote -- how it could be.

As this excerpt begins, I am seeking to convince Michael to help steer PANArt to a better path than aggression -- and to do everyone, including them, a great service by doing so...

"When I said that I did not want to see you, personally, on the wrong side of history, I meant it.

What that means is that the entire reason I wrote is that I believe now, still, you have a chance to be a force of great good.

It is not for me to offer or claim that that would be 'redemption' -- but I do think you would, in fact, redeem yourself, and so would PANArt, and Felix, were the pause button pushed now, or soon, without, for example, destroying Luis.

(Remember -- I do agree he screwed up, and has taken the wrong attitude, etc. -- that is not the point...)

If you ask me, what do I want, I would say not these little actions, however, but your aid in transforming the entire context of discussion.

I wish for a 'paradigm shift' in the posture taken by PANArt in relation to the (inevitable) flowering of the Hang-garden.

Just for a moment, I ask you to imagine the likely reaction, if PANArt went public with something like I described above... a policy statement saying, as long as these clear things are not done, we wish makers well and will let them be...

...and, as we originally did in various publications, we are happy to share what we have learned since, this portion of which you may use without license, this portion of which you must license form us, this portion of which we protect and do not now offer for license; and these things which may prove useful variation or alternate approaches for those with different interests or talents...

...and, we hope that, among you, some of great talent will come through their own path to recognize the value in what we have done -- and after toying with less promising alternatives, will understand why we chose the direction that we did...

...and so learn to make not handpans but Hanghang! And carry forward our work...

...but in the meantime, however, so long as our guideliens are followed, we give you are blessing to make your own mistakes -- after all, let them give what pleasures they may to those who (fully informed, and fully aware that they are not getting Hanghang, and why) seek them...


Can you imagine the joy and goodwill?!

Years ago I begged Felix to open the hand... this is a more concrete example of what I mean.

Can you not imagine if your role was not policeman, but shepherd, tutor, teacher?


That is my dream.

I see no conflict between PANArt's IP being protected, completely, and its 'brand' so to speak being maintained -- and this posture of openness!


But, it is far from where we are, today.

Right now the hand is as close as ever to being perceived of as a fist.

I care what happens to Luis because I believe it does not *matter* if PANArt is in the right in this, what wil be perceived is *the blow.*

The minds might perceive the justice, the heart will perceive only the hurt -- and fear it.

What else is there to say.


It is not too late.

The root conflict is not, I submit, even about who is right -- but how real or perceived wrongness is being reacted to.

It is not 'handpan makers' that I care about it, principally -- is is the instruments and their players.

Threats against the former affect the latter.

Also, as I have said, I do care about the reputation of PANArt and the Hang. And, yes, yours.


All I ask is you consider that dream-vision, and even for a moment, think about how it COULD be, rather than why it should not be.


I assume that at some deep level the reason either of us care is that the Hang does indeed exist somewhat outside of contemporary history, and has always been offered to people by different rules.

I see no reason the concept and art of it, cannot also be offered under different rules.

Different rules that might mean that the normal ones are selectively suspended, in the service of a greater vision."

- private letter from Aaron Ximm to Michael 'Ix' Paschko


Let there be light.

aaron

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:51 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
For the public record Frank I will get your permission to post any actual text - in its entirety - in the future.

I'll keep it to hyperlinks unless you state otherwise.

I am sorry if I acted incorrectly. I am also sorry if my tone was combative. (Did I mention it was a late night :?: :? )

My only goal is to foster communication.

I acted independently. There is no other motive on my part.

in service,

-greenoak (Ray Ford) :|

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
greenoak wrote:
For the public record Frank I will get your permission to post any actual text - in its entirety - in the future.

I'll keep it to hyperlinks unless you state otherwise.

I am sorry if I acted incorrectly. I am also sorry if my tone was combative. (Did I mention it was a late night :?: :? )

My only goal is to foster communication.

I acted independently. There is no other motive on my part.

in service,

-greenoak (Ray Ford) :|



Hello Ray,

I hope you understand, what I will say.

Please do it not!

There are a few postings on handpan.org from people who have a tendency to understand also a little bit, my thoughts and opinions.

Where are those postings? Will you decide, what you will copy?

At the moment, you copy postings from me and Aaron.
But last night there was a good posting from Gothang, for example.
For a complete and better understanding, of what is going on, for visitors of Hangforum you must also copy all this postings.

But, the posters on Handpan.org have a reason, why they dont post on this place. And I have my reason, why I made no postings anymore on Handpan.org after I was on the censor list. I have a reason, why I leave Handpan.org after that.
I cant answer on all the postings against me on your Forum. I cant make complete copys, because all this posters have a copyright on their postings.
If I copy something, the poster could ask the owner of the Forum to delete the posting. If he has done this not, within short time, it could be very expensive for the owner on the forum. And in case of Hangforum, I am this owner. I cant copy postings, to comment. And on Handpan.org I cant comment and I dont want to comment something, as a "censored" or as you will say "moderated" person.

All people on Handpan.org know, that there is Hangforum.com. If they like to read my thoughts, they could come and read.

It is not about clicks, or traffic. This website is absolute free from commercial. I pay money for this project and dont earn money with visitors.
Only for the record. I am happy with Hangforum as it is.

You can make a short "quote". And a link. This is how internet work.
You can do it also on this Forum.

I also dont like, that you make complete copys from other people on this place. If Aaron Ximm will say something, he can use his
account and post. Yes, he has an account on Hangforum.com.

I hope you understand. You could be absolute confident, that people read on Hangforum. If they do it not, no problem.

I understand realy, what you want to do. I understand, that you want to do this with "good will". But you cant make decissions, what is to copy and what not.

Or will Handpan.org unite with Hangforum? I think this is no good idea. ;)

Please dont post any from my postings on Handpan.org in full! Make a quote, if you want and a Link! It is ok, to leave the postings, you copied in the last days.
But from now, please do it not.

Greetings

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:10 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
Many comments were pointed directly from you to aaron. And from aaron to you. My goal was to get those comments aired publicly. All links were posted too. Many people are too lazy to look at both forums. Some refuse to look at both forums.

I was trying to give you a voice in our every-so-small handpan.org community. And aaron to yours. I am guessing he feels not welcome here. aaron gave me permission to post full posts.

No one was aware of your side of the story until I posted your full response. I think it was a positive move. Many on my forum were thoughtful to your response.

You then said something about copyright. I thought it. I agreed with your words. I apologized.

Then you come on with this post?

Dude, I said I was sorry about full posting. I apologized openly.

I said I had no other motive. I meant that. I said I would not post your full text. I meant that too :!:

So now I apologize again :!: :!:

Yes - bang on me more. :!:

No good deed goes unpunished. :cry:

-greenoak :?

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:40 am


Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Deutschland/ südlich von Bremen
Ray,

please read my posting again. Only the sense, what I would say. And think about it.
I have no bad feelings against you personally. I know, that you only want to do a good job.
Do you know, how long I need for a posting like I made on the answer to Aaron?
I think it was 3-4 hours. Because I want to say it without much mistakes and if possible I want to say what I realy think.
For that, I use leo.org and other dictionarys. But I fail, to express myself as someone, who has feelings.
Anytime people search for my mistakes, or say I am too direct and hard.

I want, that you only understand my reasons, without mix your and mine emotions. I am sure, that if we could meet in person, those topics could be cleared in a good atmosphäre.

This posting is also made within minutes, because I have a real live and now, I must do something different.

I dont want to "bang" on you. It is sad, that there is no way, for a better communication.

Please respect my posting. It is nothing personally. I only want to explain the situation. You cant be a moderator between two Forum, without give the discussion your own colour and tendency.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:59 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am
Posts: 30
message received Loud and Clear by both sides I assure you. :|

This will not happen again on my part.

to quote Shakespeare (Henry V, Act IV, Scene 3)
Quote:
And so fare thee well: Thou never shalt hear herald any more.

full quote here: http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/vi ... cope=scene

-greenoak

_________________
-----------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---


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 Post subject: Re: There is no "war" on Handpans!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:56 pm


Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:47 pm
Posts: 85
I can see why Ray feels a little put out by his actions and response, but rrest assured Ray, i've known Franky boy a long time now and his Germenglish can come across as being a bit harsh in tone but I didn't read it as an attack on your good will, just a confirmation that with the power of hindsight maybe it's best not to quote anything from either forum on either forum, just let the conversaitons flow in their own place.

what I think we also need to do here is just get over any issues on cencorship or people not being welcome and people should and must post freely on both forums, there is no shame on being in both places if it's coversations lead to the greater good of civil discussion.

A lot can and does get lost in the written word, I think with his limited English skills Frank actually does a good job of keeping up with posts, although I also feel the limited part can and does cause more conflict than there needs to be. But hey, I can barely speak a word of German, so I don't rate my chances at being able to keep up with some of the German conversations... I know Ich liebe dich though :)


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