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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:46 am


Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:44 pm
Posts: 93
Location: San Francisco, CA
Funky wrote:
"Hangomorph" is maybe a first good beginning. But, it is also only oriented on the shape. So, we must think about all the aspects more carefully.


You may be pleased to hear I have thought about this aspect... ;)

I chose the word "form" carefully in the definition.

In English the Greek root "morph" can mean "shape" but also "form." Form has a more subtle meaning than "shape," it implies something about the "deep" structure -- the *reason* a thing is shaped the way it is.

Actually, for my first attempt here, I was careful to *not* include specifics about the shape in the (proposed) definition -- I was thinking, maybe some day there will be Hanghang, or hangomorphs, that are essentially the same as the Hang as we know it, but in a different shape...? :D

I remember that Blackbells claimed they had identified alternative shapes that could work -- I am not sure I believe that claim, but in *theory* there is no reason the Hang must be in its current shape. For example, Hemholtz resonance may exist in other shapes... I have just been reading about that in some detail in a fantastic book, actually, which I could not recommend more:

http://books.google.com/books?id=CuHi9e ... ign&pg=PP1

I got this book to make my own freebar instrument in tunings I like... it's just wonderful.

In practice of course there are reasons why the Hang itself is shaped as it is -- to fit the lap of a single person, for example, while providing access to the whole playing surface...

And I think it is shaped as it is for more subtle reasons, to communicate its sound energy through touch directly to the body of the player, not just through the ears...

...but who can say, maybe there are other shapes that could work.

For example, I would love a shape that allows two people to play an instrument facing one another, sharing both laps? Who knows... :)

Maybe someday Funky and I will stop talking and play such an instrument together, in the woods! :mrgreen:

aaron

_________________
quietamerican.org
oneminutevacation.org

:: three cheers for singing steel! ::


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:52 am

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Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:11 am
Posts: 135
Location: Los Angeles
aaron_in_sf wrote:
For example, I would love a shape that allows two people to play an instrument facing one another, sharing both laps? Who knows... :)
Yes, if only...

=)


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:59 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:13 pm
Posts: 76
Location: DeLand, Florida USA
Funky wrote:
I am tired now. Tomorrow I play Hang in a forest. There are a few artist, who want to find out how a Hang sound in the forest and what they can feel from the sound. I am very curious what this day does for me and the other people. :)

Good night. (Here in germany it is late. One a clock in the morning)

Frank


THIS sounds like a very nice experience. Hopefully you will tell us how it goes. ;) "Have fun!"

_________________
------------------------------------
"In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni."

http://www.imagineyedesign.com
http://www.youtube.com/imagineye


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:43 pm

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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:30 am
Posts: 105
Location: uk
GotHang wrote:
aaron_in_sf wrote:
For example, I would love a shape that allows two people to play an instrument facing one another, sharing both laps? Who knows... :)
Yes, if only...

=)



hehehehe !


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:56 am

Imagineye wrote:
Imagineye wrote:
obi-jon wrote:
I've been trying to follow this thread on the validity of handpan as an instrument category. At first it seemed like the real agenda was not so much about the word "handpan", but rather an attempt to avoid placing the Halo and Bell in the same category as the Hang. This led to unfortunate misunderstandings and defensiveness because this is not just about the use of a single word.

After listening to the arguments from Funky and Ixkeys, the best conclusion I can draw is that this general category should not be referred to as handpan -- it should be Hang! There is a Panart Hang, a Halo Hang and an emerging Bell Hang. They are each different and the Panart Hang is clearly the original and standard by which newer instruments will be judged.

BTW, based on this taxonomy, the Caisa is not a Hang -- it is an excellent Handpan.


As much as I like this idea, I know that it will rub many the wrong way. Because now you are taking the specific term of Hang as it applies to the Hang, and placing it upon instruments that others vehemently say are not Hang. ;)

My suggestion earlier was to place Hang by itself, and place all other similar inspired instruments into their own category. After playing the Halo, and the Hang, I can assure you they are different instruments. Both have similar characteristics, but different none-the-less.

So this leads us to just naming this particular sub-set of Hang, or "Not-Hang" as it were. We already know that one creator has coined the phrase "Handpan" in reference to HIS instruments. The community adopted this term as a comfortable fit to describe the Halo, and even other related instruments.

And as it may seem, the creators of the Hang, ever directly silent, apparently do have an open ear to discuss this with some visitors to the Hang House. And it seems this term is unsavory to them to describe their Hang.

Someone mentioned earlier that perhaps Felix started the separation from the word "Pan" when he was rejected by what he thought were his colleagues in Trinidad/Tobago. At this point, we know that this rejection did perhaps psychologically affect Felix. his contribution to the art, was seen as an abhorrent extension of the art, by the very people he sought confidence in.

For me, this point may be closer to the core issue than most of what has transpired hear. At this point, there is no text nor fact to support this view, but only a vague understanding as to how this can affect a person's views from that point on. THIS is where I (and I stress "I") believe the real schism of the pan from the Hang began. Take this as you may.

So with this "assumption", my logic takes Felix's reasoning as to why the Hang is not a pan, beyond any definition of what pan, steelpan or handpan is. Pan represents an insult to Felix perhaps. Pan represents rejection. So now the man must make the Hang it's own entity.... far away from the lineage that spurned it.

Perhaps this may be to ethereal or presumptuous for some. But if we are to include all variables into the meaningful discussion, then I think this point needs to be included as well.

As I am going on a limb with my assumptions, I'll add that I'm assuming if Felix were confronted with this, he would also deny it. But to me, If I were the creator, and I was literally laughed at by the entire community I was emboldened to make a contribution to, that experience would influence my own thoughts for a very long time.


I'm amazed that no one has addressed this. Either everyone finds this inconsequential, or they are afraid to address it. As this is the third time this subject has been broached with no comment. Or perhaps some feel that I am trolling or bringing up a subject they feel is far from the subject.

With all of these musings on language and use of language, and direction of language.... I know it may be hard to include the emotional or psychological factors that often curve human interpretation. Of course if we were Vulcans ( ; ) ) we would not even consider these factors.

But I put it to this community that the word "pan" began it's separation from the Hang when the pan community rejected the Hang. If the Trinidadians did embrace this new artform, do you think there would be other Hang like instruments now being created by the islanders themselves? And how would this have affected the current market and state of affairs of the Hang and the community that is involved with it.

So you see, a turning point in the evolution of the Hang. A veritable plethora of "what if's? ". And also to consider, IF the TRinidadians DID embrace the Hang..... would the term Handpan, and it's acceptance or use be condoned by them?



Hey Danny.

I addressed this in my mind, and did not write anything about it because it is a HUGE subject.

I mentioned a LOT of what you have said here about a year and a half ago on Gidda's forum. I made a post that discussed Felix's emotional trauma from his rejection by trinidad, and the resulting actions and drama that have ensued as a direct response to an emotional blockage with Felix that he has obviously still not healed. However, when I made the post I was asked to censor (edit) it by Cheap because a lot of what I was conveying was in response to his direct experience in Bern, that he shared with me on the phone. So I cut out a lot of the part about his rejection.

To hear you speak about it again is a redemption for me. I think it is a core issue in ALL the drama that surrounds the Hang. I am not sure if it is relevant to this conversation though.

But I validate your theory as being quite accurate. With the request for censorship when I first posted this, it became more clear to me that this subject is a little invasive to Felix, and perhaps their are slight ethical issues in openly speaking about someone's emotional/psychological turmoil on a public forum?? Perhaps is is not an ethical issue, but it did bring another level of sensitivity to my oft direct-and-to-the-point perspective on these issues. But, as time has passed and this community grows deeper, I think this issue is relevant and worth talking about...

But this is an entirely different subject. I do agree with Frank that it is hard to discuss another man's emotional state. But in response to your appology Danny, I can only say that this aspect of discussion IS in fact real and was in fact experienced by Cheap in direct and extensive conversation with Felix. It was conveyed to me a few days after he returned from Bern, and it was fresh in his mind. So it is not just "heresay" as you say Frank. It was "straight from the mouth," and it in fact DID give us some clarity about the reasons behind a lot of actions that have come from the Hanghaus. Actually, I think it is sort of sad that you would have to appologize Danny. I mean, yes, if it was just out of speculation, that would be one thing. But we so often want to suppress the real truth behind certain deep psychological issues. This paradigm is changing. If we as humans do not directly confront our darkness (which is "that which we are not aware of and suppress"), then it will continue to be the forefront of what we manifest.

Anyhow, if you (danny) or anyone wishes to discuss it further, perhaps it deserves more PMs, rather than open discussion? But I repeat, this topic is an extremely important key to understanding some of the mystery behind the Hang. And again, it is not very relevant to this conversation...


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:10 pm


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:39 am
Posts: 49
Location: Austin, TX
What is a Handpan? There is a more basic problem that must be tackled first. Read the opening paragraph of this article on Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" (actually read the whole thing, it's great but off topic). How can we seriously consider the family name when we can't even control how a hang is called.?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/ju ... nd-of-blue


Last edited by rptalk2me on Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:27 pm

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Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:13 am
Posts: 884
Location: Germany
rptalk2me wrote:
What is a Handpan? There is a more basic problem that must be tackled first. Read the opening paragraph of this article on Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" (actually read the whole thing, it's great but off topic). How can we seriously consider the family name when we can't even control how a hang is called.?
http://webmail.austin.rr.com/do/mail/me ... v=standard


Hi,

the link dont work for me.

Frank

_________________
The hang brings back what we lost: we are touched by an unknown call (Felix Rohner - Panart).


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:54 pm


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:39 am
Posts: 49
Location: Austin, TX
Funky wrote:
rptalk2me wrote:
What is a Handpan? There is a more basic problem that must be tackled first. Read the opening paragraph of this article on Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" (actually read the whole thing, it's great but off topic). How can we seriously consider the family name when we can't even control how a hang is called.?
http://webmail.austin.rr.com/do/mail/me ... v=standard


Hi,

the link dont work for me.

Frank

Thanks Frank. I fixed it. Sorry about that. Try it now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/ju ... nd-of-blue


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:39 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:13 pm
Posts: 76
Location: DeLand, Florida USA
@Om - Thanks for the validation. But please let me re-iterate that I had no malicious nor slanderous intentions with my post. And my "source" if you will, is no one that is a member of this or any other forum, BUT has had a great amount of time with the Hang Haus. Enough said.

Again, thanks.

Upon thinking about this over the weekend, I began to think of numerous brilliant people that were laughed at, or not shown porper respect, within their lifetimes. Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison........ to begin with. All good company, and all laughed at or chastised for their accomplishments. I know this community can probably think of many more.

So, with this said, know that despite outward appearances, this particular conversation CAN be discussed (perhaps in a different thread) with validity. And without embarassing or chastising the Hang Haus. If anything, we can acknowledge that Felix was in good company with this experience. There should be no shame attached to this, especially considering the outcome of the Hang, and it's obvious influence on the rest ofthe world.

_________________
------------------------------------
"In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni."

http://www.imagineyedesign.com
http://www.youtube.com/imagineye


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:25 pm


Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 53
Hangomorph is an interesting suggestion. I kind of like it, although it assumes a knowledge of the hang, which makes it a little less appealing to me. (Of course handpan would assume that pan comes from steelpan, which is somewhat more valid, but maybe not everyone would know it.)

Could hangomorph be shortened further to hangmorph?

While I understand the strengths of hangomorph or hangmorph, the use of the Greek root morph seems to make it a little less accessible, I guess, for lack of a better term.

Okay, next topic. The history of Felix and the Trinidadian reaction (rejection?) of the hang as its descendant is interesting, and perhaps relevant to this topic. I have heard bits and pieces on the forums and some directly from Om himself. For me, it's beyond "hearsay," but it comes indirectly from Felix, and is lacking in the context in which it was communicated, which makes me wonder how full our understanding of it is. (I would also add that if Felix took the hang to Trinidad to present his adaptation, this only more clearly shows the musical lineage of the hang as descended from steelpan . . .)

In terms of personal relationships and trust, I do think that it is best to be careful when relating conversations, or even emails, that take place between two people, when the reasonable assumption is that what is related is between those two people, and is spoken in a specific context. Of course we all relate things from some conversations, but if something is shared in trust, especially something of a personal/emotional/psychological nature, it is best to be respectful and limit sharing that, especially widely, such as on a forum like this.

Of course, if the information has been shared numerous times with various people, it seems to be less private.


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:27 pm

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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:28 am
Posts: 489
Location: Germany
aaron_in_sf wrote:
A new subclass of idiophones is proposed: hangomorphic idiophones.

For "hangomorphic idiophone" we may say "hangomorphs" as an informal abbreviation.

Hangomorphic idiophones are defined as idiophones that have the form of the PANArt Hang.

This form is the Hang-form. The Hang-form is described as: a precisely tuned Hemholtz resonator body made of hardened steel, with soundfields tuned with odd-order harmonics.

The Hang-form is not an aesthetic characteristic of the hangomorph. It is the necessary defining characteristic, not only of look, but of shape, construction, and materials.

The Hang is the only "Hang."

Today, a hangomorph is not a "Hang" ... unless it is a PANArt Hang. (Who knows what might happen someday... ;)).

Every Hang of all generations (back to the Mother Hang) is a hangomorph.

The Halo and Bell are also hangopmorphic idiophones. They have the same form as the Hang, not only of aesthetics, but of principal of operation and materials.

To say that something is a hangomorph is NOT to say that it has the same SOUND as a Hang.

There may someday be "hangophonic hangomorphs" but that is not certain. The prototype Bell may be a good first step in that direction, but today the only hangophonic hangomorph is the Hang.

The Caisa is NOT a hangomorph, because it does (in its current form) share all of the defining characteristics of the form.

A steel tongue-drum is a related subclass of idiophone, but it is NOT a hangomorph and it is not very closely related. Playing techniques may be shared between steel tongue-drums and hangomorphs, however.


"Handpan" is not part of this nomenclature. Today, it is an emergent (possibly temporary) word used by some people to refer to both hangomorphs, and related instruments that are not hangomorphs, such as the Caisa (and possibly even steel tongue-drums).


Useful? Right direction? :)

aaron


Useful? Yes, because it is a new proposal that can be discussed.
Right direction? Yes, because it tries to give a definition. No, because the proposed definiton must fail at this point of time in this collective of persons involved in this discussion.

My thesis is: Nobody of us (involved in this discussion by now) is able to formulate an adequate definition of the Hang.

Felix's thesis is, that the Hang can't be defined. So it is in vain to try it and wasted time.

My thesis at this point of the discussion is not so strong (but compatible with Felix's thesis). I only say: Nobody of us involved in this discussion has understood enough about the hang to are able to define enough properties of the "morph" of the Hang, so that the Hang is only nearly adequately defined.

Aaron mentioned the following properties of the Hang which are necessary and sufficient to define the Hangomorphic Idiophone:

- precisely tuned Hemholtz resonator body
- made of hardened steel
- soundfields tuned with odd-order harmonics

I think each of these three items has to be discussed and refined (for example wether a specific hardening process is to be defined or if "odd-order harmonics" is to unspecific becaus the octave fifths tuning is a much stronger definition even used for the pan before the Hang etc.). But more important for my thesis are items that are missing in this definition.

For example the domes and their function in the tone field geometry. I have to say that I have partly understood some aspects of the domes by reading the available PANArt papers, but I'm far from a complete understanding. Is somebody else of us in this status? I think not.

Another missing item is a topic that can be called "From Isolation to Integraton". This is a topic I also understood only partly by reading thoughts Felix sent me. The steelpan tuners try to isolate the tones from each other. The PANArt tuners changed this "paradigma" and follow the way of integration (this is the meaning behind the name "Integral Hang"). After the Hang was born they had found an instrument concept that allows them to follow this new principle. This is the reason why they give up to think in "scales". This is the reason why the mumber of sound models was reduced until they only had one with the IH. There is a complex interplay of the tones in the corpus of the Hang. As a player of 2nd generation Hang and a Low Hang I assume I have understood some of this practically when I'm able to let the Hang sound as a whole. But I'm far from understanding this satisfying. Is someone else of us?

As I stated in a discussion in Gidda's forum a while ago there are "invisible" aspects of the Hang's "morph".

My conclusion from this: We (defined as the group of people involved in the discussion by now) must fail to define the Hangomorphic Idiophone, if the Hang shall the model for it.

So perhaps we should change our viewpoint from a Hangomorphic Idiophon as a catogory or concept that want to define something to the obvious properties that could give us a concept that can be practically used. This was the advantage of the handpan concept. Using the idea of the "morph" we could define a concept that doesn't want to give any deeper insight of the instrument but relates only to the shape. This would mean to reduce the definition Aaron formulated for the Hangomorph.

Not
- precisely tuned Hemholtz resonator body
- made of hardened steel
- soundfields tuned with odd-order harmonics

but only
- nearly Hang shaped body
- made of sheet steel
- tuned soundfields

The difference to the handpan concept is, that the definition doesn't relate to the pan but to the Hang. But in the same way as in the handpan conpept isn't said whether the instrument really reach the pan concept, in the new concept isn't said whether the instrument reachs the Hang concept.

As a working title I propose "Hang shaped instruments".

The advantage of this concept is that you don't have to decide whether an instrument includes certain "invisible" items that belong to the definition or if it reaches certain quality requirements that belong to the definition. And on the other hand it invites to the discussion about the differences of the concret instrument to the Hang.

Ix


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Handpan?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:50 pm

toddnmd wrote:
Of course, if the information has been shared numerous times with various people, it seems to be less private.


...Hence the reason I brought it up again.

Sorry Robert...

I will cease this non-relevant tangent in this thread.

I do think progress has been made with Hangomorph.


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