hangforum.com - The Archive

Hi,

@Om. If you want to quote me, do this please in the right context. Your quotes are not in the right order and not in the right context.

I have no problem to call this instrument "american Handpan". It was Kyle, who named his Halo a "Handpan". So the Handpan came from america.
Or not?

Where is the problem?

I am away from Keybord the next days. Please come back to a little bit more fairness @Om.

Frank

I think you should also come with a little bit more fairness, and a lot less "jabbing". I know you know enough about the creation of this instrument to know that the reason that it is bigger is to make lower notes. To say that it is bigger, better, Burger King American is just a total slam and nothing else. It is not grounded in anything that has to do with the creation of the instrument, and has more to do with you not liking the other side of the fence and not liking the fact that someone stepped up to fill the void in the world of musicians seeking musical instruments that sound "similar" to the hang.

I had a long conversation with Kyle yesterday. I think it is important to point out that the intention behind PanArt's work is not to create an instrument any more. They are more concerned with creating a device for sound healing/therapy, and for creating the clearest possible sound from the shape and metal that they are using. I applaud that effort, and I have revised and updated my understanding of their actions regarding the creation of the IH. I have said in the past that I do not think it is an evolution, and I now disagree with my statement because I realize that they are not trying to create a musical instrument anymore. They have taken away aspects of the device that make it more of a musical instrument and focused on getting the best sound. That's great. I have no problem with that.

Kyle, on the other hand is intentionally trying to create a musical instrument, and perhaps even a drum. It is a completely different approach, and has a completely different effect on the sound that he has made. You have asked many times, "why has Kyle copied the shape of the Hang to make his drum?" And you imply that he should use a totally different shape and a totally different design than the one that he has now, that looks like a Hang, because he is only copying the shape to profit off of PanArt's back. This is pretty offensive, and this comes from your single minded approach that seems to imply that anyone who tries to re-create the Hang should also follow PanArt's way and try to create sound devices for therapy and not purely for musical purposes. Everything you say is true about the Halo, that it is more like a drum and louder, and this and that. And you imply that there is something wrong with this. Basically, you love PanArt and you play their device not like a musical instrument. That is also totally fine. But you continuously invalidate and reject another perspective, which is that there a musicians who want to use an instrument of this shape to create music, not just to meditate or to perform sound therapy.

So, why do you keep asking why Kyle copied the shape of the Hang? How could it be a different shape and still have the tonal possibilities of this new instrument genre? If it did not have a cavity, it would have not bass tone sound. If it was not round it would not have the proper tension and balance between the notes to tune it properly so that the different sounds work well together. If it did not have a Ding, the bass tone would also be affected, as well as other aspects of the sound. This round UFO-like shape has incredible possibilities as both a musical instrument as well as a precise, refined sound sculpture. To go down the path of a musical instrument, like making different scales for example, leaves out some of the possibilities for getting the best possible sound out of the device. And equally, to work only on the best possible sound removes some of the musical possibilities and having a diverse pallette for creating music, both as a drum, and as a melodic instrument. So both equally have their place, and there are sacrifices that are made with the decisions and intentions of each maker to produce the final sound that they are looking for. Neither is wrong. Both has a very special place in our world right now. But from your words, for months and months now you make it seem like to go in the other direction from PanArt and to make a musical instrument, that may not have the best perfect refined sound, is wrong and is only "copying" the hang "for profit". This is the core of the issue here, I believe, and again, as I have been trying to make clear to you for weeks now, there is another perspective and direction that can be pursued other than the way of PanArt, and that IT IS NOT WRONG. It is just different, and it is very clear that Kyle has the intention of going in this direction, without the intention of "stealing" from PanArt. Part of it is a business decision, yes. But more than anything, it comes out of his spirit as a different artist than Felix. You seem to want to invalidate that fact and deny existence to anything other than the way of PanArt. ANd it is getting old.

You should speak to Kyle yourself and stop bashing his project until you understand where he is coming from and why he has chosen to take the steps that he has taken. I think you may get the opportunity to do that "very soon".

Wow, Om, this is a passionate, reasonable, even comforting declaration and summary of the situation. Thank you. There is indeed room enough in a our world for many approaches, philosophies, applications of these new art forms in the world of sound. I am grateful be be alive in these exciting times.

Thank You Saggio.

Now that I have gotten past defending my position passionately (admittedly in a sometimes crass and rude manner, for which I appologize), I think there is light at the end of the tunnel, which just split into 2 lanes, possibly more...

"And I, I chose the path less travelled......"

Danny, happy 40th birthday!
Saggio

Danny, are you going to have a Hang 'N Halo birthday cake?

That sounds cool! However, only 39 candles, this year.

''Grouping them together does not imply that they are equal. But they do share some common characteristics. ''

i think that is an important statement.

i too feel this way - i agree that there are massive differences in the ethos, processes and end results of hang, halo, bell and caisa creation but i cannot deny the fact that they are similar enough to be categorized in the same 'family'.

i do not see this as a sad day for the hang and yet i think i understand my hanghang very well thanks.

if this view is not acceptable by hangforum.com then say so now and i will have to leave the admin team.

Hi Michael,

who is hangforum.com?

A forum like that belong to the people who are part of the community.

Greetings
Frank

Frank your stubbornness and inability to accept other people's opinions has eroded this "community". It is hard to even use the word "community" to describe ANYTHING on this site. At this point in time the word "cult" or "dictatorship" is a better description of what you have created here. And I am NOT the only one who shares this opinion.

Will you turn a blind eye to Michael's statement as well, as you have all the rest of our opinions? Let me summarize so that it is clear to you. He basically just said that if you do not accept that people want to call the Hang a handpan and place it in the same category as the Halo and others, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, then he is no longer interested in being an admin here.

Thanks for speaking up MC. Sorry if I had to reiterate what you wrote. It seems that the true message got overlooked, as usual.

Hi,

@Om

I can read, what Michael C. wrote. So, I dont need your translation.
If you feel that this forum want to make a "cult" or a "dictatorship" I wonder that you wrote in this dictatorship.

We have different views and opinions. And I have the view, that the Hang is not in the category "Handpan". A also think that "Handpan" is only a kind of bad joke.
What is wrong with this?
You have your opinions and you are also free to post your views here.
With your statement that I am a "dictator" you are on the border to personally affront. But you can do also this, because no Moderator can tell you that this behavior is normally not welcome in any forum. Not only in this.

I know that you are "not the only" who dont like that I have critical questions.
If it is any consolation, I can tell you that I speak with a lot of people who agree that Hang is not Handpan.
Only because of a few people are more present on the websites this means not, that they are the majority of Hangplayers.

Do you know that the most Hangplayers are female? But the most members of the community are male.

Frank

RE: most Hangplayers are female - wow, that is interesting - I assume the information comes from Felix and Sabine Frank? You wouldnt know to look at the online presence.

Ok, forgive me but I still dont think I understand - why is 'handpan' a kind of bad joke?
My understanding - some people, in a phenomena not limited to this or other forums (observable on youtube and in other places) have started reffering to a category of instrument which includes hang, halo and bell as 'handpans'. This was adopted as a useful term to describe a type of instrument, a group which was growing.

To some people who write here (mostly Frank and Ix) and as far as I am aware to Felix at least the term 'handpan' is unnaceptable to describe the Hang. The Hang, in their mind is so singular a device that to describe it alongside other instruments of similar (not same) shape and function is misleading.

That's it, the rest is argument over which viewpoint is correct, and whether anybody has the right to tell anyone else what is correct.
So where is the bad joke Frank? To me this phrasing implies a sense of malice within those who would use the term. Is that your perception?

I think what has created such an emotional response in so many is the suggestion that any who would use the word 'handpan' have somehow failed to 'understand' their hang.

To 'understand' the hang is such an abstract concept that we will struggle for a very long time before communicating what it means to each of us using this forum, using text. Maybe the only way to communicate an 'understanding' of a hang is to play it.

This community by the way used to be about furthering an understanding of the hang for everyone. To my mind this is better than talking about who understands and who does not.

Frank Frank Frank, this is another way you can make people feel that you are "in the right".
I also talk to people but would not say that the number I hear are a "vote" or something like that to prove a point, or my point.




Once again you are using information with no "background".
How do you know this
I "assume" you got this from PANart, this worries me because I don't know when you say something if it is from "you" or "PANart", very confusing, nothing to do with understanding a language or not
And so what if there are more males on the forum, or are you implying the majority (females) are not heard

If there are women out there reading this then get on and join up and let your voice be heard

@MrFox

yes, the information that more Hang players are female is from Felix. He must know if Panart gave more Hanghang in male or female hands in the last years.
I dont know why much more male persons are in the forum. Maybe we must think about another quality of discussion and than more female hangplayers want be part of the community?
Or is it only that female hangplayers have not so much interests in computer and internet?

You ask why I see in the term "Handpan" only a bad joke.
I post this in the foretime, but I can post my view again.

First was the Panart Hang. (Panart say clear that Hang is not "Handpan")
People copy the Hang shape and say, they are inspired from Panart.
One of this people was Kyle. He make the Halo and he was the first who named his instrument a "Handpan".
This is why I said in another thread we have now the "American Handpan" .
Pan is part of the culture from Trinidad and Tobago.
If you invent a new general term for a group of instruments and you call this instruments "Pan" or "HandPan" you enrich the culture of Trinidad with an new instrument.
Does Kyle speak with Panart about that? Does Kyle speak with Trinidad about that?

In short words: People from America copy the shape of the european Hang , give this instruments a new general name without speaking with the inventor Panart and indirect they tell the people from Trinidad that the "Pan" family has a new member.

I think this could only be a bad joke.


Frank

Hi,

I only post this, because OM said: "And I am NOT the only one who shares this opinion."

So, I do the same and say: "I am not the only one who shares the opinion that Hang is not Handpan".

I dont see, that this is helpfull, but I use only the same kind of argumentation technic as OM did.
I do this, to show that I understand what OM argumentation technic was to confirm his opinion.


Frank

I think the "handpan or not" argument is a tired one. We have our reasons for thinking differently. Can we move on?

My earlier post was not an attempt to convince Frank (or anyone else) that handpan is an acceptable term that includes the Hang. In my opinion, and for some others, it does. For others, the Hang is in its own category. If that's the way you see it, fine.

My earlier posting was an attempt to provide balance. I think this is important in this forum because I am not sure how many people reading this thread have read the previous discussions. I know that many have, and for them, the continuing argument is tedious. But for others who may not have seen these other discussions, I think it is reasonable to provide this balance.

So, I suggest we have a truce about this subject. Frank, I got your point that this forum is not representative of all Hangplayers. I'm not sure how important that really is. It is clear that a group (yes, relatively small from the people who have given their opinions directly on this and other forums, but we are also a group who is reasonably well informed, and passionate about handpans).

In the end, some of us want to use the term handpan to refer to a group of instruments. We don't have to ask any person's or any group's permission to do so.

I don't insist that anyone use this term if they don't want to. But please respect our right to use this term that we find useful and practical.

I did not call you a dictator. I said this forum feels like a dictatorship because it denies others the right to their opinion. Big difference. No personal affront. This is my opinion, and it is just as valid as yours.

Most of my posts have been trying to fight for my (and other's) opinions as being valid because you continuously invalidate them with your Opinion, which is based on Felix's opinion. You do not leave room for the fact that any opinion other than FElix's opinion is still an acceptable opinion, because it is just that.

So far all you keep saying is "the Hang is not a handpan". And nothing else. So all we can derive from this is that "The Hang is a Hang", which is an improper way to define something. I have no problem with the statement "the Hang is not a handpan". But if there is no better term created by the creator or his spokespersons, then the public will decide on its own. Even if many people think "handpan" is an incorrect term, and many other people think handpan is a correct term, the fact that the term has been used 1000s of times already on the internet means that the term will stick in the minds of the general public who use the internet until a better term is used to replace it. And I agree with you Todd, this subject is getting old, but it opened up the curtain to see that not all opinions are being accepted fairly and openly in this forum, which is the main reason why I keep persisting. I am fighting for all opinions, not just for "handpan" vs "not-handpan".

On another note, according to Ix's views, not all "hang owners" are "hang players". In order to be a "hang player", from what is understood in English through Ix's writing, a person has to "understand" their hang, which as Mr Fox pointed out, this is not something that will EVER be defined, and limits a person's ability to explore, which is the intention of the Hangmakers...to allow people to explore and discover it for themselves. ACcording to IX, in order to "understand" the Hang, a person cannot be a musician or have preconceived ideas and notions about how to use the hands to make sound. So, by this definition, almost ALL hang owners who are on youtube are NOT "Hang players". Shall I make a list of hang owners who play their hang like a musical instrument? Let's see, Manu Delago, Andi Steil, Laura Inserra, Dante Bucci, Keona, Matt Venuti, ............ goodness I'll stop there because that would be a LONG list of pseudo-famous people. All are musicians who DEFINITELY UNDERSTAND their Hang AND had preconceived notions about how to play it before they bought one (in other words, already had skills). To say that someone does not "understand" their Hang is a personal affront, or at best AN OPINION, in my opinion.

For sake of discussion, how is it, in your opinion Frank or Ix, that someone is able to "understand" their Hang? I am very curious... Is it by understanding the physics? Is it by understanding how All sounds are created on the Hang including the deep bass tone and adjusting the Hemholtz to D2? Is it understanding the history of the Hang and of Pan and Trinidad culture? Is it by reading all posts on all forums? Is it that we only understand our hang if we understand FElix's perspective? Please tell us, how do we understand our Hang?

Well thats that then... i want my money back, i've been mislead from the start, presumably the HangOut is going to be interesting, i've got all these Hang players coming and it turns out that not one of them can play.... bit late in the day to start booking Ukelele and Banjo players I suppose